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lamlom · Veteran Member

What does it mean that the one God has a holy trinity?

Ex-huyton · Senior Member

The Trinity was just an idea dreamed up by the men who met as a strategy-planning council in about the year 300 AD. I seem to recall that it was in what we know as Turkey (I will delve and supply more precise details shortly).

Had the council contained different individuals then a different idea would have been dreamed up, I'm sure.

Those who bother to read a bit of history - even just a little - will quickly discover that individuals in all religions have added this here and that there, according to their whim. Why then do we treat the resultant narrative with such deep respect and reverence?

Ex-huyton · Senior Member

It was the Council of Nicaea, held in Asia Minor in the year 325 AD at the instigation of the Emperor Constantine.

Here is the link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

lamlom · Veteran Member

I think you are a Muslim; and I respect your opinion very much. But I'm surprised by your comment for the following reasons:

Are you did not read what is written? Or you read and did not understand? My beloved brother, I wrote the verses from the Bible and I have explained these verses spoken by Jesus. If you read a little history before talking about complex Nicaea;you were not written that.

Council of Nicea was held on May 20 in 325. It discusses heresy of Arius and ended with the development of the law of faith, which confirms what I wrote. Please my brother don't rush writing before you read too well.

Date: Jul 11, 2013

The term 'Trinity' is no where to be found in the Bible but it is mentioned in Qur'an. Can you answer this please

The possible Qur'anic references to the doctrine of "Trinity" are verses 4:171, 5:73, and5:116.^[1]

People of the Book, do not go to excess in your religion, and do not say anything about God except the truth: the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was nothing more than a messenger of God, His word, directed to Mary, a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers and do not speak of a 'Trinity'—stop, that is better for you—God is only one God, He is far above having a son, everything in the heavens and earth belongs to Him and He is the best one to trust.
— Qur'an, sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 171^[2]

Those who say, "God is the Messiah, son of Mary," have defied God. The Messiah himself said; "Children of Israel, worship God, my Lord and your Lord." If anyone associates others with God, God will forbid him from the Garden, and Hell will be his home. No one will help such evildoers. Those people who say that God is the third of three are defying [the truth]: there is only One God. If they persist in what they are saying, a painful punishment will afflict those of them who persist. Why do they not turn to God and ask his forgiveness, when God is most forgiving, most merciful? The Messiah, son of Mary, was only a messenger; other messengers had come and gone before him; his mother was a virtuous woman; both ate food. See how clear We make these signs for them; see how deluded they are.
— Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 72-75^[3]

And when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
— Qur'an, sura 5 (Al-Ma'ida), ayat 116^[4]

Furthermore, verses 19:88-93, 23:91, and 112:1-4 are relevant to the doctrine of "Trinity":

They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, that they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son. Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.
— Qur'an, sura 19 (Maryam (sura)), ayat 88-93^[5]

No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!
— Qur'an, sura 23 (Al-Mumenoon), ayat 91^[6]

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
— Qur'an, sura 112 (Al-Ikhlas), ayat 1-4^[7]

lamlom · Veteran Member

You asked for the term of the Trinity in Christianity and this is the answer:

1_ Jesus said to his disciples, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Gospel according to Matthew 28: 19).

You brought verses from the Koran respond to an ancient Christian heresy is says that God is the third of three. My brother, please understand that

We believe that God is one. This one has the spirit and has a word. Also this is what the Koran said.

If you're not believe in the verses of the Quran. So you do not believe in the Koran.

lamlom · Veteran Member

Qur'an mentions that the Trinity is one God just as we believe in Christianity. The Christian Trinity: God; And his word. And his soul. This is exactly what was written by clearly in Qur'an in one verse:

1- NISA verse 171: (but Christ Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah and his "word" was delivered to Mary and "a spirit from him").

ln this verse shows that Allah has: *self: "Messenger of God" * ((word): in saying (and his) distraction conscience single absent back to God. * (Spirit), a distraction in (from) the conscience of a single absent back to God. The Christians don't say more than this.

2-certificate of Dr. shakankiri: testifies to ours such a Quran by Muslim scholars, Dr. Mohamed shakankiri, Professor of Islamic law at the University of Paris, then Professor of Islamic law at the law faculty at Ain Shams University in Cairo, said: [we know that Qur'an says about Jesus as the word of God, and his spirit , (the word of God and the spirit of God) this does not affect the Christian label any difficulty then was objecting to the Muslims, forcing them to acknowledge the divinity of Christ.

3-Who is Christ? Muslim answers that is the word of God, that is the Spirit of God. But this "word" and this "spirit" are created? Or are not created? If the spirit of God is a creature, there is no problem: Christ is God's permission. If the spirit of God's is creature, so the Spirit of God and the word of God are creatures. So God was before the creation without a word! Without a spirit! And it is inconceivable!!]

This is the testimony of Dr. Mohamed shkankiri, was published in Al-Ahram newspaper Cairene on 26/05/1985 translated from the (historical Journal of French law and foreign) in the month of June 1981, and the translator Dr. Mohamed Badr, professor of history at the College of law the rights of Ain Shams University.

Ex-huyton · Senior Member

I just returned from holiday and found lamlom's comments. His assumption that I am a Muslim is mistaken; I was raised as a Christian but I perceived even as a child that what was being presented to me was a myth. Those who accept and believe it are, in my view, naive and simple-minded people who are desperate to believe in something - anything. It is safely in the dim and distant past and so cannot be questioned.

I concede that lamlom has refuted my assertion that the Trinity was devised by those attending the Nicea Conference in 325, but why is it only Matthew who mentions it? Did Mark, Luke and John also mention it in their gospels, and if not, why not?

Although I ask the question, I confess that I am not truly interested in the reply, for I regard all these ancient religions as so much mumbo-jumbo, designed to entrap people and put them in a straightjacket, the creature of somebody else, be he priest or imam, etc. Despite Matthew 28, I understand that early Christianity was regarded as being for Jews only, and it was St. Paul who expanded it so that gentiles too could be included. The Emperor Constantine seems to have accepted Christianity not for pious reasons, but because he sensed that it would make him more powerful. This was the man who instigated the conference!

I have often observed that the people who cling devoutly to a religion are often the ones who have no interest in learning any factual history. This is quite a giveaway, don't you think?

lamlom · Veteran Member

Beloved brother

With all respect for you and for your opinion,

I do not agree with your thoughts, you see that millions of believers are simple and naive. They are not geniuses like you.

You still do not understand that trinity is in the Bible, not invention. You ignore that Christ who spoke about the Trinity and the verses written in front of you, and you discuss the Council of Nicaea, which came after 325 years discusses Arius heresy and it had been ended with confirmation the divinity of Christ and issued a Code of Christian faith that confirmation of the Holy Trinity and deprivation of Arius.

Please, my brother learn when you want to speak, you must have proof of your words.

You said that why only Matthew, who spoke about the Trinity? These are some of the verses are not from the Gospel of Matthew:

First Epistle of John the Apostle: 5 - 7

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Second Epistle to the Corinthians: 13:14

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen".

- You say you are a Christian but it turns out that you do not know anything about Christianity.

You asked a question then said that you do not wait for the answer. You considered these discussions are trivial.

Why discuss then?

Ex-huyton · Senior Member

Thank you lamlom - I respect your scholarship and knowledge of the scriptures. Already I have conceded that you have successfully refuted my earlier claim that the Trinity was invented in 325 AD. I am not a genius, and nor have I ever claimed to be one.

I found the reference you quoted of John the Apostle. My Bible expresses it as follows:

"For there are three who bear witness, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and the three agree in one."

So it doesn't seem that John was quite talking about the Trinity. Corinthians doesn't carry much weight because it was written by Paul of Tarsus, a man who never met Christ but who took it upon himself to take it over, so to speak, and turn it into a world religion.

Why do I contribute here when I openly admit to being uninterested? Well, throughout my years I have been cajoled and pestered by those who would have me accept the religion that THEY have accepted. Surely I am entitled to speak out for myself and fight back by drawing attention to the shortcomings that I see. An obvious objection is the long passage of time that elapsed before each gospel account was written.

Here's another question: If the four gospels are in any way fit to be respected as historically factual, why do they fail to make any mention of the large new town that was under construction a few miles from Nazareth in the very period that Jesus lived? This would have been where any carpenter in that locality would have been employed, so it should have loomed large in any account.

Date: Jul 23, 2013

biggrin .//;

Date: Jul 23, 2013

HGM